English language debate

LOL ROFLMAO OMG



Just for Jesse

As an someone who's devoted seven years to the use and craft of the English language, my disdain for its pollution reaches far beyond my forays with Travian. In not too pointed terms, having it mangled in what I hear and read is like an unending stream of racial slurs maddeningly jabbering in my ears. My sentiments to this end are not intended as offensive to others but rather defensive of something noble and precious that is riddled with malignant tumors brought on by the internet age.

I completely respect your desire to protect the english language (i work with people who say libary and ax instead of ask (and not in a fun futurama way))
however, saying that people who use abbreviations have nothing worthwile to say, is in fact, being offensive to those people.
I'm a firm believer that there are always ways to defend something you believe in without being offensive. I feel your sig missed the mark a bit.
But that's completely my opinion and you are entitled to yours as well.

Viva le resistance!!!

Down with internet slang!!!

I agree with both of you and so I also disagree with both of you.

First, English is a living language and like all life it changes/evolves depending on its environment and must do this in order to preserve itself from the fate of Latin (fragmenting and dieing). Thus "preserving" English would actually be killing it.

Second, just because a language can change doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be reduced to smilies and super long meaningless abbreviations like ROFLMAO no mater how fun they are. Just as water takes the path of least resistance language does not like to superfluous words, suffix or prefix. Because of this fact LOL will die unless (please no!) it makes it into conversational English as a replacement for "ha ha ha".

Last thing, the internet has become the medium of choice for most communication excepting possibly personal-contact-conversation which is slowly dieing. The amount of personal network communication that is taking place has vastly accelerated the evolution of English including it's spelling (which is terribly flawed and needs desperately to change).

No one knows the future of English but one thing I know for sure, preserving it's current forum may be destructive and is nearly imposable to do even with an act of (our shiftless) congress (who cannot even decide that it should be the official language of the US).

Alright, now that everyone's got that out of their system, I'd like to make sure we don't completely go off topic into a debate about the english language and remind everyone that this is a discussion about alliance standards regarding recruits.

Wow, I don't know where that came from, I'm never the one to try and put a thread back on track.

well i think everyone had stated their opinions, unless anyone has any objections?

One last thing before this thread re-rails itself. Jesse used to get on me for using poor punctuation and grammar in internet messaging and forums. Thus, I write in as good of English as I can muster when I'm on these things (generally). So it's not all bad. See? I can even distinguish its/it's!

However: on topic. We really do (I think) need to have a clear distinction between council matters and public consumption. Things like requirements to join are obviously public, while items such as delicate negotiations for mergers ought to be kept more private. The rest lies somewhere in that grey area between the two.

Jesse has squandered his seven years (I myself got out of the English majoring after just five semesters). Jesse views things backwards. Apply his beliefs to physics and it is the written law of gravity itself that binds us to the Earth. The rules of grammar, syntax, diction, etc describe how language functions and as along as the intended message is being delivered then there isn't a problem unless you're looking to make someone else feel inferior. They do not govern the language (or else it would never evolve). Language, like the market economy and evolution is spontaneous order and does not need top down governing to originate or survive. Smilies are an excellent method of punctuation. IronSmith joked about farming me when I went yellow, to which I could have just responded:

Bring it!

But I went with:

Bring it!

Which is different from:

Bring it!

You can get to the same place with more context, but with written text we don't have the benefit of inflection and smilies can be efficient shorthand to convey tone. Who is to say they aren't an improvement brought about by technology?

All of the grammar you were taught in high school relies upon circular logic, and fails any logic proof, or is so vague and indefinite as to be rendered useless (terms like may and typically). They all rely upon native speaker intuition (think the People vs. Larry Flint where the majority opinion basically said I can't define porn but I'll know it when I see it).

Look at the definition of a paragraph from Random House in 2006:

1. a distinct portion of written or printed matter dealing with a particular idea, usually beginning with an indentation on a new line.
2. a paragraph mark.
3. a note, item, or brief article, as in a newspaper.

Prove to me, without stamping your foot or relying on native speaker intuition that the following is not a paragraph based on the above definition:

Like boxers facing off in the ring, the Peninsula (333 Charoennakorn Road, 66-2-861-2888; bangkok.peninsula.com) and the Oriental (48 Oriental Avenue; 66-2-659-9000; www.mandarinoriental.com/bangkok), sit on opposite banks of the Chao Phraya, warily eyeing each other. The Oriental has history on its side, as well as superb service and lovely views. The Peninsula has a slightly hipper crowd, a livelier pool scene and sweeping views of the city. Call it a draw. Rates start at $289 for the Oriental and 12,000 baht (about $358 at 33.5 baht to the dollar) for the Peninsula.

The Metropolitan (27 South Sathorn Road; 66-2-625-3322; www.metropolitan.como.bz), part of the boutique hotel empire of Christina Ong, is an oasis of urban chic in the busy Silom neighborhood. The sleekly elegant Cy’an restaurant (with several tables overlooking the hotel’s inviting pool) is a popular hangout for the young and the gorgeous. Rates start at $250.

Equally charming, but considerably more affordable, is the 10-room Old Bangkok Inn (607 Pra Sumen Road; 66-2-629-1787; www.oldbangkokinn.com), which marries traditional Thai style with 21st- century conveniences like in-room PCs with high-speed Internet access. Rates start at $97.

The aforementioned defintion does not require indentation at the start of a new line and the singular idea being explored here is where to stay in Bangkok. The quoted text that appears above is only a portion of a newspaper article, thus, from what I can see by relying upon the dictionary definition of a paragraph it meets all requirements.

Now, I don't think anyone here would call this a paragraph, nor do I think anyone would call it pornography, but the point is there is a ton of gray area involved in language which is far from static and is only starting to be codified competently (although that approach to grammar is not taught in high school and generally only in linguistic courses which don't reside in the liberal arts colleges Jesse and I have taken English courses in).

Excellent writeup.

All well spoken including the awesome Futurama reference. I agree that the bastardization of our language continues to occur, and that each generation seems to have less of a grasp on its intricacies. I must add another slight diversion to this thread, and I hope this offends no one... but it SICKENS me to see and hear the Spanish language becoming more and more common in our society. There is a large Polish section in our town, I don't see Polish language signs around? I heard about 10 years ago, when I lived out west, that California narrowly voted to maintain the English language as the official state language. Now think about that... Imagine everything official in the state having to be changed over to Spanish....that alone would have bankrupted the state! ANARCHY! One of the 20/20 variety news programs had a story less than a year ago about the IRS having a spanish only line... they called it and it gave detailed instructions on how two adult parents could work the system and both claim single married head of household, and claim all the kids as dependants each. NUTS!!

Sorry for the rant...but I feel better, and isn't that really all that matters...?
Zeb

i keep hoping that one day they will invent a sarcasm font - because good, well played, subtle saracasm can be hard to catch when it's written.
Ver Sinn and i PlAyEd WiTh A fOnT lIkE tHiS for sarcasm, but it was time consuming and annoying.

as a writer i am a big fan of "rules are meant to be broken" (which is why i don't capitalize my "i"s (too used to spell check))- but before you can break those rules you really need to understand them.
That's why i find it ok if people use smilies effectively, as FP did above, and why i, too, can find it irritating when you get 12 year olds on forums running wild and pissing everyone off.

I like Spanish and I hope to speak it well someday but like zebadiah it really pisses me off that Spanish speakers now outnumber English speakers in some cities like Miami. If we are going to cater to Spanish speakers we should be "fair" and cater to mandarin speakers and Russian speakers and French speakers and ... you get the idea, lets not be racist (sarcasm font).

I have no qualms about making this land inhabitable for anyone that will not learn to communicate in the nations native tung or at least learn some good (non-vulgar) hand gestures. I don't even care if they cannot speak it well, an attempt would be nice.

Here in MN it would need to be Hmong- which i'm not even certain what language they speak is (ha! check out the craziness of that sentance!)

that sentance was crazy.

and still the debate rages..... i have refrained thus far from commenting just so you all know i am reading but as one of the few true blue brits on here i find this debate quite amusing... ever heard the line god heavens you boys! blue blooded murder of the ENGLISH tongue......

Good heavens yes, god heavens no.

Here here, Ironsmith! I agree on the requirement to speak the de-facto (not native!!) language; it USED TO BE THAT WAY! I have this argument with my girlfriend (yikes it gets ugly FAST....) about "Give me your poor, ...." Etc. It was a lovely phrase and worked well when they were REQUIRED to take a citizenship test, get and KEEP A JOB, speak the language, and maintain themselves as proper citizens. Now all one has to do is somehow make it across the border, pop out a kid, and BLAM. You be an AMERICAN! No don't worry about speaking english or getting a job...

*sigh* I'm getting old.

I'd like to say before someone makes a fuss that zebadiah is only referring to his frustration about the many immigrants that do this not ALL immigrants.

I'd also like to point out that the US is not the only nation with this problem. I know China has this problem (Mandarin vs. Cantonese VS. Wu etc.) as well as Mexico (good Spanish vs bad Spanish) and most of Western Europe (many many Germanic and Romantic languages and is starting to be influenced greatly by Slavic and Arab languages as illegal immigration continues).

I'd also like to point out that this is a derailing of a derailed topic.

With the world being smaller then has ever been b4, I can see why so many people find it hard just to see only one language being used. With so many people from all around the world being able to go from china one day. And wake up in US the next it can be hard to get around with others speaking a different language. And that also works with americans going to other countries. More countries are starting to use english as a 2nd language for all the business they get from American tourest that visit on vacation to many places around the world. I'm sure given time we will all speak a single language as humanity. As to what that language will be there's really know way of knowing. But will most likely be some remix of the english language that adopts words from other languages.

We can call it Gerenglisnamese.

I always liked Portugreek

I can see I wasn't the only one to watch WaterWorld when it was on the other day.

LOL. what a crappy, yet sometimes good, movie.

I don't know why but I really like Waterworld